Tuesday, April 15, 2014

Thoughts on Ordain Women

I would like to share my thoughts about the ordain women movement, which I understand is a risky endeavor, because I know that it is a 'hot' topic, so to speak.  I do not wish to cause contention or frustration. I only wish to predominantly share what the prophet's are saying and have said pertaining to the subject.

I will also start with this, and this is what it really comes down to:  Is what the prophet's are saying words of God?  If what they are saying is of God, isn't that good?
Amos 3:7  "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."  
There is an order here that was established from the very beginning of the earth and that is that God's doctrine would be revealed to us through his prophets.  Heavenly Father will assure us personally if a prophet is really called of God, by means of prayer.
Moroni 10: 3-5  "Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would  remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.  And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true;  and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.  And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." 
I have experienced the reality of that scripture.  It seems to me it is nothing short of God's prescribed test for finding truth.

So, if I were to protest in anyway against anything, that the church is teaching, I would  also be protesting against the authenticity of it's proclaimed authority of God.  Therefore I would be questioning God.  In other words, I would be either choosing that their words are not of God, or if I affirmed that they were of God, I would be choosing to disobey.

It's really that simple.

I think that so many of us have times when we question what the prophets are saying.  There are certainly times when things they say may 'rub us the wrong way'.  Well, is it not the ultimate point of the gospel to submit our will to God?  God's will be done, not ours.  I know it's not always easy, but Jesus Christ has promised us eternal blessings for following Him and His appointed servants.
John 14:6  Jesus Saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Perhaps as you are reading this, you feel it is wrong for women to not have the priesthood.  Perhaps you feel inferior in the church, or that it is unfair that a women would not have the position of prophet.  It's okay, if you struggle with this concept.  Your thoughts matter just as much as anyone else's.  I again ask the question though, is it of God?  Are the prophets today receiving revelation from God about the subject of priesthood, or the roles of men and women?  And if they are receiving revelation from God, isn't that the right thing? Isn't that right even if it's not what we want it to be?

Sometimes it requires faith (well, often) to remember that God's ways are always good and right.

I share my strong love and understanding that God's ways are always good and right, even when they don't seem to be at first.  Whenever I have been patient and sought for Heavenly Father's understanding about what the prophets have said, He has helped me to understand His purposes in a more perfect way.  He has lead me to answers, lead me to truth.

One of the apostles, Elder Dallin H. Oaks (click on his name for the full speech. Ponder what he says, it will give a better understanding of where the church stands about this movement) said some comforting words on the subject that, I believe, help us to have the Lords perspective.  He actually said these words during the same time that the ordain women group intended to meet.  I feel it shows the Lord's awareness of his beloved daughters and their concerns:
At this conference we have seen the release of some faithful brothers, and we have sustained the callings of others.  In this rotation- so familiar in the Church - we do not "step down" when we are released, and we do not "step up" when we are called.  There is no "up or down" in the service of the Lord. There is only "forward or backward," and that difference depends on how we accept and act upon our releases and our callings."  
The world tends to look at outward achievements as being successful, such as positions held (such as religious positions).  But this in not how the Lord see's us.  He desires for us to be obedient.  He is revealing his 'secrets to his servants the prophets' of how to be obedient.
1 Samuel 16:7 "But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him:  for the Lord seeth not as a man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart."  
The Lord revealed this to the prophet Joseph Smith:
Doctrine and Covenants 1: 38 "Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled.  What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.  For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth abideth forever and ever.  Amen."  
It is my invitation to all who feel discontented on this subject, whether a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or not, to try the words of the Lord for yourself.  Take that leap of faith in following the words of the prophets to see if they are of God.  Pray and ask Heavenly Father if it be right, and good, or of Him.

As far as I understand John Chapter 7, it talks about people going to a feast which apparently Jesus was invited to.  Before he came the Jews where looking for him and asking where he was.  While they were waiting people started talking about him behind his back.  Some said Jesus was a good man, others said he deceives people.  It says that "out of the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught"  The Jews wondered how he could be so smart without having really learned (perhaps this pertained to some form of secular learning at the time)  and this was Jesus' reply:
John 7: 17 "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.  If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether  I speak of myself."
My point in sharing that story is that similar arguments happened clear back when Jesus was on the earth, as they do now.  Although the subject is not specifically ordain women in the bible these men, in essence, were doing the same thing by questioning Christ's authority.   Jesus Christ's response still applies today.

Thank you for sharing in my thoughts.


  1. One other point to consider is the historical dimension of change in the church. The perception is that change can happen from the membership. After all, so many programs of the church evolved from some need or good idea or movement among the members that came to the attention of the prophet. Even Relief Society stemmed from what sisters were doing, which the prophet saw, appreciated, and helped organize as an auxiliary. On top of that is the model of revelation pertaining to blacks and the priesthood, which was that the members and leaders asked the Lord for revealed change. My personal view on women and the priesthood is still undecided. I can understand the desire but I also feel uneasy about the idea. But, I think the motivation of the movement stems in part from a desire to persuade the Lord to allow something or change something. As long as the OW movement doesn't radicalize and completely alienate themselves, it is possible change will happen. They may not be ordained, but in the course of debate we will fine tune and sharpen the role of women in the priesthood, which is a good thing over all.

    1. hm. Yes perhaps what the people were doing stimulated thought that then brought the prophet to ask the Lord, but the fact still remains that whatever changes need to be made will come through the prophet. It is a movement which I have seen being mainly negative attention toward the church, thereby thwarting the purposes of building it. Luckily for us, the Lord knows all of our hearts and will bless us accordingly. His will be done.

    2. Thank you for your comment by the way. :)

  2. As I am not a member of The Church I may be presumptuous in commenting here. However, I was raised in The Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints and feel that I have a pretty good working knowledge of the doctrines and history. That being said there is a couple of things I would point out in your argument. First you make the assertion that if one disagrees with anything the church is teaching you are either choosing to disobey God or questioning the Authority as well as the validity of the Church and prophet. I am not aware of anyplace in Scripture that assures us that 100 percent of what a prophet says comes from God. Nor do I find any evidence that the organization of the church itself is not susceptible to the imperfect nature of man. Even the Church that Christ Himself started over time became corrupt and steeped in traditions and liturgy that were not necessarily condoned by God. That was the main reason for the need of its restoration according to LDS doctrine. On the contrary, I see when I study the Bible that almost every prophet was prone to human failings and character flaws that sometimes clouded their judgement and muddled the message that God was trying to impart. That is not to say that they were not truly prophets or were false prophets. Just that they were human and struggled with human issues like self will and arrogance among other fallibilities. Some of the things that Brigham Young taught as Doctrine were absolute nonsense and totally wrong in light of what we know now. IE that a race of giants was living on the moon etc. One must also consider cultural relevance and norms when we look at policies and practice. When Lorenzo Snow was 64 years old his third wife was 11 years old. Today that would be completely unacceptable but at the time He said it was Gods will. My point here is that in my opinion whenever any person or organization no matter how noble claims to be infallible, it is most likely coming from deception or delusion and blindly following that person or institution is an exercise in foolishness. Scocieties change and evolve as do churches and even our understanding of God. While it might be said that God is eternal and unchanging. Our concept of God does change and as it changes in order for God to maintain relevance to us personally as well as culturally, how God expresses Himself needs to Change as well. Perhaps the role of women in the church will change and perhaps not. I don't see many absolutes in scripture aside from that overwhelming admonition to love God and the way we do that is to love others as ourselves. That we should learn to be tolerant,charitable,and kind. These are the things God is trying to get across to us. The rest is relatively unimportant but the rest seems to be what we always get hung up on.

    1. Thank you for your comment. I see your concerns as valid and to be taken into account. It is important for us to pray about what the prophets are saying to know if it is of God. Have you ever looked up some of those things (like the giants on the moon) you mentioned on Fairmormon.org? My prayers are with you sister. May we all come to a more pure knowledge of God through prayer and through his servants.

    2. My sister pointed out to me that I called you "Sister" when I should have called you "Brother" Sorry about that! haha